2/7/2014: I’ve had this post saved as a draft for a few days now. I have been debating whether to publish it or not.
I tested the waters by posting an anonymous opinion on another blog that will remain unmentioned unless the owner wants to say something, and I guess I’m not the only one who has the same appreciation.
I also made a comment on a stackexchange question today. http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/24558/5723
Here is the original post:
There’s a saying that goes like “Ideas are in the air”, and
another one that goes like “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”. In this
hobby, it is obvious that many ideas are borrowed and re-used because they are
just so cool. However, is there a certain line that should not be crossed? Like,
say, failing to give credit to those whose ideas you explicitly borrowed, and sometimes even slamming
the creative work that you, in essence, copied? Or, going beyond mere inspiration or borrowing to what amounts to appropriating their work, again without due credit, and passing it off as something different and original.
Cases in question:
http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-Mark-s-Adventure-Glyphs
http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-Updates-and-fixes
http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-Updates-and-fixes
I don’t know why one would feel the need to slag a product whose
main idea one is copying.
How about this:
Inspiration or imitation? No credit given either to a very
original idea (and having given proper credit to other ideas does not make this failures right).
He basically shows no love for the original work that he, in MY view, ripped off:
http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-Mark-s-Adventure-Glyphs?pid=118#pid118
This stuff by itself is bad enough but then you start seeing things in the forum that just don't seem right. For example, why does an actual play report need to be limited to actual plays created by the site’s tool? Why move actual plays using other tools to the general forum? These are original tools that ‘inspired’ the so-called “Mark’s Adventure Glyphs”, and “Mark’s Adventure Questions” in the first place, so why the treatment?
I find that suspicious, and in light of that, the youtube advertising, with its very fake-testimonial vibe just adds even more sleaze to the whole situation.
I honestly don’t know what to make of it; is the site intended as a future way of making money? Hard to say, as this is a niche community within a niche hobby. Personally, I do feel as if there is, or was, an intention to try and monetize the site (at the expense of other people's creative work no less). The owner denies it, though he does mention he hopes to take enough income so he can buy "an ebook or video game every now and then." The fact that it's not likely the effort would succeed doesn't mean the intention never existed. I have no proof, but all of the above does make me wonder.
It's entirely possible I'm wrong, and maybe the advertising really is mostly an an effort to grow the community...but then, it only advertises RPGSolo.com, a place where you’ll find disparagement of some tools (Rory Story Cubes) and no credit given on others (9Q's), even though they were "inspiration" for what the owner is peddling. In fact, you see testimonials for the site before you even see anyone being credited.
This is pretty much all I have to say, and it needed to be said. The owner of a blog already deleted his endorsement of the site after finding out, so I'm not alone in feeling sketched out by all of this. Feel free to come to your own conclusions about what the owner of RPGSolo is up to given how he's gone about all this business. Maybe you'll decide you don't care as long as you get your gaming fix, or maybe you'll find yourself sketched out by the tone of the discussion there as regards other people's work.
All I know now is that I will not be supporting this site while this way of doing things persists. I might change my opinion if I see more prominent credit given to all people whose ideas are copied, and zero slamming of their work.
Update on 2/9/2014:
As of yesterday, Mark, of RPGSolo, has grudgingly edited the thread in which he disparaged Rory Story Cubes to at least give some credit to one tool he is copying. Why won't he credit it on the home page, and why he had to wait for others to pull back their endorsements, and criticize him, I don't know. Why aren't the 9Q's and UNE credited yet, I don't know either. I guess it's a start, though, even if it seems insincere in light of his comments here: http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-RPG-Solo-is-under-attack?pid=784#pid784.
It's obvious from reading that thread, with its overwrought title, that Mark and some of the forum members don't get why the owner's, and participants' attitude towards others' creative work can be upsetting to people-- especially that work is being used to boost RPGSolo. They characterize pointing this out and rightly criticizing it as "whining", and that in itself speaks volumes.
This confirms, in my view, that I was correct in describing the owner's copying of others' work without giving proper acknowledgement as a habit. In his own words, he thinks that expressing disapproval of this way of operating is just nothing more than "whining", so he and his supporters must believe that taking other's creative output without giving due credit is just fine as a practice.
A place with an attitude of this sort will never earn my support or endorsement. Any person who believes people deserve credit for their work will probably agree..
Update on 2/10/2014: This is a response to Mark's post at http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-RPG-Solo-is-under-attack?pid=787#pid787
Mark,
The vibe in this niche has so far been very collaborative and supportive. However, it's clear that you see things as some sort of competition, and RPGSolo as competing product-- even though many of the tools you copy are already free. You claim that you have no plans to make money off of this-- at least no more money than is needed to buy an e-book or game-- so this attitude of competition, and its analogy of competing companies, is incongruent.
Also, your analogy with Notepad is asinine. Those are software implementations of common physical items like an actual notepad. The same could be said of implementing dice rollers. However, RPGSolo is copying full fledged works in form and sometimes even content. I'm sure you already know the difference.
For example, the 9Q's and your "MAQ" are the same basic concept. There is a very high probability that "MAQ" wouldn't exist without the 9Q's, and the fact that there is nothing original about RPGSolo gives pretty strong evidence of that. Not only that, "MAQ" were only implemented after someone asked for the 9Q's. For the Rory Story Cubes clone, the same is true. You even copied the number of results which is nine.
You should have given credit where credit was due without being prompted to. You had almost a full year to do so, but didn't even bother until the criticisms started. If upon receiving criticism, you'd just said something like, "Hey you guys are right. I'm sorry. I do owe these products credit" and then done it, criticism would have just gone away quietly. Instead you got defensive, tried to justify the unjustifiable, and only did the right thing after figuratively kicking and screaming for a few days.
Maybe I should have pm'd you or posted here first. Given the reaction here in this very forum and on Solonexus, would that have been fruitful? It's been pretty clear that you think carrying on as you've been doing is fine. You're entitled to believe that and act accordingly, but other people are also entitled to express their opinions about that, and to decide they want no part of RPGSolo.
At this point, I won't be accepting any more comments that rehash the same arguments. A summary of the arguments in this comment thread has been made on this page:
http://solorpggamer.blogspot.com/p/why-i-dont-support-rpgsolocom.html
It's entirely possible I'm wrong, and maybe the advertising really is mostly an an effort to grow the community...but then, it only advertises RPGSolo.com, a place where you’ll find disparagement of some tools (Rory Story Cubes) and no credit given on others (9Q's), even though they were "inspiration" for what the owner is peddling. In fact, you see testimonials for the site before you even see anyone being credited.
This is pretty much all I have to say, and it needed to be said. The owner of a blog already deleted his endorsement of the site after finding out, so I'm not alone in feeling sketched out by all of this. Feel free to come to your own conclusions about what the owner of RPGSolo is up to given how he's gone about all this business. Maybe you'll decide you don't care as long as you get your gaming fix, or maybe you'll find yourself sketched out by the tone of the discussion there as regards other people's work.
All I know now is that I will not be supporting this site while this way of doing things persists. I might change my opinion if I see more prominent credit given to all people whose ideas are copied, and zero slamming of their work.
Update on 2/9/2014:
As of yesterday, Mark, of RPGSolo, has grudgingly edited the thread in which he disparaged Rory Story Cubes to at least give some credit to one tool he is copying. Why won't he credit it on the home page, and why he had to wait for others to pull back their endorsements, and criticize him, I don't know. Why aren't the 9Q's and UNE credited yet, I don't know either. I guess it's a start, though, even if it seems insincere in light of his comments here: http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-RPG-Solo-is-under-attack?pid=784#pid784.
It's obvious from reading that thread, with its overwrought title, that Mark and some of the forum members don't get why the owner's, and participants' attitude towards others' creative work can be upsetting to people-- especially that work is being used to boost RPGSolo. They characterize pointing this out and rightly criticizing it as "whining", and that in itself speaks volumes.
This confirms, in my view, that I was correct in describing the owner's copying of others' work without giving proper acknowledgement as a habit. In his own words, he thinks that expressing disapproval of this way of operating is just nothing more than "whining", so he and his supporters must believe that taking other's creative output without giving due credit is just fine as a practice.
A place with an attitude of this sort will never earn my support or endorsement. Any person who believes people deserve credit for their work will probably agree..
Update on 2/10/2014: This is a response to Mark's post at http://www.rpgsolo.com/forum/Thread-RPG-Solo-is-under-attack?pid=787#pid787
Mark,
The vibe in this niche has so far been very collaborative and supportive. However, it's clear that you see things as some sort of competition, and RPGSolo as competing product-- even though many of the tools you copy are already free. You claim that you have no plans to make money off of this-- at least no more money than is needed to buy an e-book or game-- so this attitude of competition, and its analogy of competing companies, is incongruent.
Also, your analogy with Notepad is asinine. Those are software implementations of common physical items like an actual notepad. The same could be said of implementing dice rollers. However, RPGSolo is copying full fledged works in form and sometimes even content. I'm sure you already know the difference.
For example, the 9Q's and your "MAQ" are the same basic concept. There is a very high probability that "MAQ" wouldn't exist without the 9Q's, and the fact that there is nothing original about RPGSolo gives pretty strong evidence of that. Not only that, "MAQ" were only implemented after someone asked for the 9Q's. For the Rory Story Cubes clone, the same is true. You even copied the number of results which is nine.
You should have given credit where credit was due without being prompted to. You had almost a full year to do so, but didn't even bother until the criticisms started. If upon receiving criticism, you'd just said something like, "Hey you guys are right. I'm sorry. I do owe these products credit" and then done it, criticism would have just gone away quietly. Instead you got defensive, tried to justify the unjustifiable, and only did the right thing after figuratively kicking and screaming for a few days.
Maybe I should have pm'd you or posted here first. Given the reaction here in this very forum and on Solonexus, would that have been fruitful? It's been pretty clear that you think carrying on as you've been doing is fine. You're entitled to believe that and act accordingly, but other people are also entitled to express their opinions about that, and to decide they want no part of RPGSolo.
At this point, I won't be accepting any more comments that rehash the same arguments. A summary of the arguments in this comment thread has been made on this page:
http://solorpggamer.blogspot.com/p/why-i-dont-support-rpgsolocom.html
*grabs popcorn*
ReplyDeletethe attitude may turn off some people but the fact of the matter is that you can't copyright ideas or patent ideas. The 9Qs are also "ripped off" from Syd Field and they're still great. This is a tempest in a teapot, IMO.
I came across the discussion recently under the Glyphs thread, where the author lambasts Rory's Story Cubes, and was critical of its cost and lack of usefulness. Despite my view to the contrary (that RSC's is a great value and far more useful in iconography) and considering a rebuttal, he is entitled to his opinions. I don't have to like them (and I don't!). Nonetheless, I do find it a bit galling and tasteless (and he doesn't have to like my opinions, either) to belittle a great product from which he got his inspiration. It's fine not to like the Cubes, but I see no productivity in making a stink out of it. I, too, will not be supporting RPGsolo.com.
ReplyDelete`@Roryb,
ReplyDeleteIt is tasteless. And when you attack a work that you're basically ripping off as a way of promoting your own, it's basically the same thing politicians do come election time. It's sleazy.
@Dante:
The 9Qs are not a ripoff. They are an adaptation of a work into a framework for solo rpg'ing, and I basically think they go beyond mere adaptation into innovation territory, but that's just my own appreciation of them.
For the 9Q's to be a ripoff, JF would have basically had to take the Three Act Model, make a few minor tweaks, and call it JF'S THREE ACT FRAMEWORK.
Also notice that JF gave promient credit to Syd Field, something which RPGSolo didn't do for the 9Q's, Rory Story Cubes or even UNE.
ok after the updates I can see clearer now what you mean. I still think it's a bit of an overreaction as that site barely has anything going on.
ReplyDeleteI don’t know if Mark is going to respond to this, but you’ve made a number of statements that I’d like to question, so I will…
ReplyDelete“it's clear that you see things as some sort of competition”
Are you saying that Mark is the only one to brag on his site about its usefulness and design? I find that very hard to believe.
What Mark did is take a number of existing tools and combine them in a convenient and easy to use interface. He gave credit to the creators of those tools. The “Adventure Glyphs” were added later, and they were not a port of an existing tool, but a tool he created himself after a user asked for that kind of functionality. It may have been inspired by Rory’s Story Cubes, but other than its intended use and the arrangement of nine squares, it is a completely different product.
“your analogy with Notepad is asinine”
Actually, I thought that analogy was spot on! It was sarcastic obviously, but sarcasm is a very common and understandable response from anyone who is unjustifiably attacked, which is what you’ve done here.
“You should have given credit where credit was due without being prompted to”
Since he actually created his own solution to the request for a set of story-inspiring icons, rather than port an existing tool into his page, I think that “should have” is only a matter of opinion. On top of that, you didn’t “prompt” him to do anything - you attacked his site and accused him of being “sleazy”. Your “criticisms” are unfounded an severe to the point that I have been wondering from the beginning as to where they came from – they seem disproportionate to his perceived transgression, which I still think is only a matter of opinion.
"Instead you got defensive"
You accuse him of getting defensive after your attack, but then in this post you seem equally defensive – honestly I’ve never met anyone who wouldn’t react defensively after your initial inflammatory post. I can quote it, if you think I’m being unfair.
“after figuratively kicking and screaming for a few days”
You original accusations had the tone of “kicking and screaming” – in comparison, I thought his response was quite calm.
“Maybe I should have pm'd you or posted here first”
You mean before you accused him of being a sleazy thief and raised an undeserved stink in a community that until then had nothing but praise for his efforts? Yeah, a PM would have been nice! Maybe I should have PM’d you my questions before posting this on your forum?
“other people are also entitled to express their opinions about that”
I agree, but if someone is standing on a soapbox and shouting to passerby, it looks more like a crusade than an opinion.
Who am I? A friend of his with which he collaborated (conspired?) with when he came up with the idea. You’ll occasionally see me using his site as slaad11 – that’s why when I read your initial attack, my reaction was WHAT?? WHY???
ReplyDeleteSlaad,
You can take umbrage at my one man "crusade" if you want. People can judge for themselves and I'm ready to take on the consequences whether that means they stop coming to my blog or take a dislike to me. That's on me to deal with. Likewise, Mark has to deal with the consequences of his own behavior, which has nada to do with me other than the fact that I brought it up. If he has lost and continues losing people's support that's entirely on him.
You also ask if Mark is the only one to brag about his site, but again, this is just a deflection from the main issue. Still, I'll tell you what I haven't seen the creators of the works I mentioned do:
1. They have not been "inspired" by others solo rpg tools into creating minorly tweaked, derivative work that has their first name attached in front of it, as though the product is something completely new and not a blatant derivative.
2. They have not bragged about their work by putting down other people's work.
Mark has done both of these things separately and also at the same time. To me, yes, that is a sleazy thing to do.
As for the rest of your comment, you haven't really argued anything that I haven't already addressed in my post and its updates.
Dreamer,
ReplyDelete“If he has lost and continues losing people's support that's entirely on him.”
-That does seem to be the aim of your strange little crusade, but honestly, I doubt he’s lost or will lose more than one or two users over this (yourself included) – if I’m wrong and you've left SoloRPG over Mark's supposed "transgressions" – please correct me.
“…as though the product is something completely new and not a blatant derivative”
-Neither has Mark – you completely missed the point of the site. RPGSolo is not a new solo RPG system inspired by its predecessors, it’s a UI that conveniently combines existing tools so you can use them together and a forum if you want to share your stories. The only new components are things the users asked for after the site started, like the genre word lists and the Adventure Glyphs (which is a completely new product – not like Coke and Pepsi, more like a horse and a motorcycle)
“They have not bragged about their work by putting down other people's work”
-Saying that your product/solution/web page/whatever is cheaper and better than a predecessor is called “advertising” not “bragging” or “sleazy”
As for your updates:
“the YouTube advertising, with its very fake-testimonial vibe just adds even more sleaze to the whole situation”
-You missed the point on that as well – you too can buy those fun (and yes, fake) little testimonial clips to promote your website – they only cost $5.00 each. I thought they were great! Of course, I’m a bit of a dork, but then I don’t think I’m alone in the role-playing community :]
“is the site intended as a future way of making money?”
-You don’t believe that conspiracy theory that we never landed on the moon do you? I was there when Mark came up with the site – the conversation was something like this… Mark: “So, I’ve been looking at the solo-roleplaying community and there’s some cool tools out there… I thought it would be great to make a web app that consolidated them, so you could use them together.” Me: “That does sound cool. I’d use something like that!” And the site grew from there – that’s it – there’s no conspiracy.
“and it needed to be said”
You see yourself doing some sort of public service, but if Mark just created a handy UI that combined solo-RPG tools, added a NEW story image tool by request, and tried to promote his site so he gets more traffic on his forum (which is kind of the goal of any forum), then what you’re actually doing is just senseless and inflammatory. Since I know him personally, I can tell you that this is the case. You don’t have any reason to trust me, of course, but why would I lie? Am I part of an insidious money making scheme, or did you just over react and post a public flame instead of just sending an IM?
Slaad11
I will repeat: The story cubes come in sets of 9 and "Mark's" product "coincidentally" has 9 images. MAG and MAQ also only appeared after people requested them or in direct relation to the tools they copy.
ReplyDeleteAlso, let's just say that there are way of promoting one's work and getting traffic without putting down other works with words like "measly" and implying that they're childish or not serious. This is particularly sleazy when one is copying them, "neglecting" to give proper credit for almost a year, and pretending that one's output is somehow new and original.
Still, if you think you'll only lose one or two cats over this, then don't worry so much about what I think and express. What you need to worry about is making up your mind about what is the point of RPGSolo. If it's supposed to be a collection of tools thought up by other people, then the RPGSolo needs to examine what is the point copying that work with minor tweaks, and then attaching Mark's name in front of it, all while "neglecting" to give proper credit for almost a year or attacking the original product.
Let people be the judge.
Let them figure out why RPGSolo lost the support of one major blog in this niche (and it's not my crappy blog), and at least one other user who spoke up, in addition to me. They can also see Mark's own behavior in the site. If they believe, like me, that people should get proper credit for their work, they might also choose not to support RPGSOlo until it changes its tone and behavior. If they believe, like me, that the community is better off when it is collaborative and supportive towards those who inspire them, rather than seeing things as a competition for marketshare (that supposedly one is not aiming to profit from), they might also choose not to support RPGSolo until it changes its tone and behavior.
Dreamer,
ReplyDelete“The story cubes come in sets of 9 and "Mark's" product "coincidentally" has 9 images.”
-Tic tac toe is also arranged in 9, I repeat 9 squares. Coincidence? Did Rory’s Story Cubes give proper credit to tic tac toe for that inspiration? I think not!
“putting down other works with words like ‘measly’”
If you… (never mind, not Dreamer), if anyone else reads the post in its entirety and context, I think you’ll discover that the term ‘measly’ was used as a HUMOROUS tone, rather than a degrading one. Moreover, has Mark ever posted anything actually trying to disparage Rory’s Story Cubes? Nope. Has he tried to degrade them to others on any blogs or other forums? Huh uh. He said this about Mark’s Adventure Glyphs on his own forum:
-- Rory's Story Cubes only provide a measly 10 million possible combinations.
-- Mark's Adventure Glyphs currently provide 1,837,992,529,106,133,991,360 2,276,499,710,888,011,759,150 combinations (calculated using the Combinations and Permutations formula for non-repeating entities.) And more are coming.
The phrase “measly 10 million” is a joke – you know… Humor?? Oh and yeah, that improvement is like tic tac toe on a chalk board to a master chess program, but you’re right – they both use 4 sided squares (that’s another joke – I’m not attacking Rory’s Story Cubes or Tic Tac Toe, both are great games!)
“implying that they're childish or not serious”
You’re right! As an avid role-player and a big fan of fantasy and sci-fi, I should not discount the images on Rory’s Story Cubes for an aid to my epic adventures. I’ll roll them now and be inspired…
Let’s see, I got a… Is that an airplane for Weeble Wobbles? Whatever…
I got an airplane, a moon, a sheep, a tee pee, a fish, an apple, a cat with a ball, a bumblebee and a rainbow…
Huh.
So, Bumblebee the sheep-slaying barbarian traveled to…
Nope, sorry, I got nothing.
(By the way, in case you missed the humor there – though those are actual images on RSC, I do not own them and did not actually roll them - I was being facetious.)
“…output is somehow new and original”
I’m curious. Can you list the sites that combine many of the different solo role-playing tools into an easy to use UI that allows you to save and post in a solo role-playing adventure forum?
“…attaching Mark's name in front of it”
Do you mean the directly-ported tools like Mythic? Nope, he didn’t do that. Do you mean Rory’s Story Cubes? Nope, that’s not a port at all – he created his own solution and therefore has a right to put his own name on it.
“…to give proper credit for almost a year”
Since he was obviously unaware of your perceived transgression, I’m certain that he would have gone ten or even twenty years. Of course, if you’d just IM’d him with your concern, I’d sure he’d have given credit immediately.
“Let them figure out why RPGSolo lost the support of one major blog”
That’s easy – your post did that, though it was just a mention and a screenshot. Of course now the check's have stopped rolling in from all his 'supporters'... Yeah, I'm being facetious again)
“…and at least one other user who spoke up, in addition to me”
Like I said earlier – one or two users.
“(that supposedly one is not aiming to profit from)”
I repeat – there is no profit scam, and yes we did in fact land on the moon.
“…until it changes its tone and behavior.”
Mark – please do NOT ever change your tone or behavior! Your game play UI is cool and innovative (that’s right, innovative), and your posts are hilarious!
The bottom line is this: You claim Mark shows a “habit” of putting down the work of others that inspire him, but your only evidence is his tongue-and-cheek response on his forum comparing Rory’s Story Cubes to his own solution. If you want to actually see his tone and behavior, try reading the credits he’s had on his front page for the tools that did inspire him, and try reading his comments on many of the forum-users’ posts – then you’ll get an actual picture of who he is.
Tic tac toe is not known as a story tool, and Tic Tac Toe was not once mentioned as a request on RPGSolo. You know perfectly well that the Story Cubes were the direct influence in the so called "MAG". It deals images just like Rory's Story Cubes; it deals 9 images, just like Rory Story Cubes has 9 cubes; and it even copies the naming scheme: Rory's Story Cubes / Mark's Adventure Glyphs. How original and non-derivative indeed.
ReplyDeleteMark's comments, however "humorous" you think they are, were still a clear disparagement of the Story Cubes. This was even more evident by the lack of proper credit giving.
As to whether Mark would have given credit "immediately", let's just say it's been five days, and counting, since the criticism was made public. It took three days for Mark to grudgingly credit the cubes in some user thread that's not even the main thread where he peddles "MAG". Even in that, he couldn't leave sarcasm out of it. I'm pretty sure that there was never any intention of crediting any of these folks.
By the way, you can't talk about how the point of the site is to consolidate "cool tools out there", and in the same breath claim that RPGSolo isn't wholly derivative of other people's work. Make up your mind.
And unless you've got something new to add that isn't a gaslighting attempt, don't bother to post, because I will delete your comment. Use that energy to do the right thing and credit the right people on your front page.
I made that ridiculous tic tac toe comparison to point out that an arrangement of 3x3 is hardly a concept invented by RSC, and neither is the concept of images used to inspire storytelling. He does copy the three word naming scheme, but that's hardly grounds for your accusations - he did that to draw attention to the tool's intended use, so what? Should he give RSC credit for inspiring him to use three words in the naming of his product?? That seems like quite a stretch to me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, MAG's images are NOT just like RSC's images - try it once and you'll see what I mean, especially in the context of solo role-playing.
When you say that Mark's comments are still a clear disparagement, you say that like it's a fact and not your personal opinion - I wholeheartedly disagree on that point - This is my opinion, but its every bit as valid as yours, and no less factual.
And again, since he didn't foresee your personal angst until this discussion started, how could he have known to give credit? He didn't see it in the same light as things like FU and Mythic, and neither do I.
I said that Mark would have immediately given credit if you’d just IM’d him, or posted your concern on his forum. You “criticism” was defaming (not defaming like saying his product was better and cheaper than the other, defaming like calling him a sleazy thief with a habit of disparaging the work of others and taking credit for them so he can somehow monetize his site.)
After an attack like that, of course his response was sarcastic! Again, if you’d just voiced your concern instead of calling him a sleazy thief, I’m sure he would have just given RSC credit (without the sarcasm – that was in response to YOUR tone).
And what do you mean “make up my mind?” Mark didn’t take Mythic, tweak it a little, and put it out as a new solo roleplaying system. Mark combined existing tools, added some of his own, and created a unique interface in which to use them all together – that was innovative and that combination was no more a derivative of other people’s work than the ice cream truck is a derivative of the work of Good Humor and Dryers.
You say I’m just making gaslighting attempts, but you’re wrong. You and I are having a debate over Mark’s character, which you’ve attacked. You’re upset with him because, in your opinion, he didn’t “do the right thing” and credit the right people on his front page. I’m upset because, in my opinion, you didn't do the right thing and you’ve painted him in a very bad and inaccurate light.
I think my comments are certainly new enough to add to this discussion, but if you’re unwilling to debate this further and you don’t want others to read my points, or you just have to have the last word, go ahead and delete my post. I’ll post it on Mark’s forum instead, so that people can, as you say, form their own opinions - and if you want to continue this discussion there, since it has not been resolved, neither I or Mark will delete your post.
Slaad11
This is how you are gaslighting:
ReplyDelete"I made that ridiculous tic tac toe comparison to point out that an arrangement of 3x3 is hardly a concept invented by RSC, and neither is the concept of images used to inspire storytelling. He does copy the three word naming scheme, but that's hardly grounds for your accusations - he did that to draw attention to the tool's intended use, so what? Should he give RSC credit for inspiring him to use three words in the naming of his product?? That seems like quite a stretch to me."
The point here is not that other games use a 3x3 grid, or a similar naming scheme individually. I don't know how much more clear it can be that what makes so-called MAG an obvious derivative is the combination of using images, 9 of them, the same naming scheme, and for the same purpose.
Not only that, I'm very sure that MAG wasn't even a germ of an idea in Mark's head prior to the Rory Story Cubes. How can something not be called blatantly derivative in light of all that? Any other person would be able to see this point clearly, so either you're being really obtuse or you are attempting to gaslight people.
This is my last reply on that point. Each analogy you've brought up like notepads, cars, and now tic-tac-toe is the same thing-- I've addressed multiple times. The more you bring those up, the clearer it becomes that you're avoiding the point-- either because you're gaslighting, or just being obtuse.
And yes, I called the attitude in RPGSolo and the behavior regarding this sleazy, because frankly it is. Others find the same attitude tasteless. What I haven't done is call called Mark a thief, but if I wanted to call Mark names, I'd call him a copycat. One who couldn't bother to credit those he copied until he caught some heat. I don't buy for a second that he intended to credit those people. He had almost a whole year, and couldn't find the time to do that. However, he found the time to create youtube videos, criticize other people's work, promote his site on reddit, on twitter, move an actual play report not using HIS tool out of that forum, etc. It's pretty clear that properly giving credit isn't really that important in his mind.
Finally, that you and mark don't like my tone is irrelevant to doing the right thing. You shouldn't think you're doing this for me. You're doing it because you want to be decent to the folks who put in the creative effort behind what you're copying, right?
I don’t agree that I’ve just been gaslighting or that I’m being obtuse, but I can see that this discussion is going in circles.
ReplyDeleteYou’ve called my analogies gaslighting and try to say their irrelevant – While some of them have had a sarcastic tone (and I do apologize for being facetious - I'll admit that my cage was rattled), I believe that they are quite relevant, and I could continue to explain why (with a less sarcastic and more rational tone if you like), as well as further explain the validity of my opinion vs yours, but since you've accused me of just being obtuse (an attribute which I could as easily apply to your stand on this), I'll try to take this in a simpler direction...
Just answer this:
If Mark has this "sleazy habit of disparaging the works of others and then taking credit for it", why did he only do so with RSC? Why didn’t he disparage FU, Mythic, Solo Dungeoneer, Tiny Solitary Soldiers, UNI, or 9Qs? Why did he give them all praise and credit on his home page? Why has he only ever given supportive feedback to the creative works of those that have posted their stories and ideas on his forum?
You have blindly attacked his character without getting to know him. I know him and know for an absolute fact (not an opinion), that you are way off base.
I would hope that if someone publicly and unjustly defamed you, that you would have a friend that speak up on your behalf as well.
Slaad11
Slaad,
ReplyDeleteI'm not bothered by your sarcastic tone. I'm more bothered by what I've been criticizing about RPGSolo.
Your analogies have been irrelevant because they don't address the point: MAG copies a combination of features about the Story Cubes starting from the concept and ending with the name. The differences between them are vastly exaggerated in the forum. Using a different set of abstract images, having more of them and not being in dice format do not make MAG something "NEW", or original. MAG is to Rory's Story Cubes what the "Great Giana Sisters" is to Super Mario Bros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Giana_Sisters) or what Tetris clones are to Tetris itself (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/defining-tetris-how-courts-judge-gaming-clones/).
"Just answer this:
If Mark has this "sleazy habit of disparaging the works of others and then taking credit for it", why did he only do so with RSC? Why didn’t he disparage FU, Mythic, Solo Dungeoneer, Tiny Solitary Soldiers, UNI, or 9Qs? Why did he give them all praise and credit on his home page? Why has he only ever given supportive feedback to the creative works of those that have posted their stories and ideas on his forum?"
I wrote this: "this site has a habit of ripping off other people's creative work, renaming it as "Mark's Whatever", and then slagging those that he ripped off. "
Note that UNE and the 9Q's were only added today. Out of roughly 7 ideas or works that RPGSolo copied or was "inspired" by, 3 went uncredited (4 if you count Instant Game which was only mentioned in passing) for almost a year. Two were renamed to some variation of "Mark's Something Something", and one product was disparaged on more than one ocassion (two products if you count Mark's shot at the 9Q's in what's supposed to be his newly added acknowledgement). Seems like a pattern to me.
"You have blindly attacked his character without getting to know him. I know him and know for an absolute fact (not an opinion), that you are way off base.
I would hope that if someone publicly and unjustly defamed you, that you would have a friend that speak up on your behalf as well."
Outside of his tone and behavior in regards to RPGSolo, Mark could be a choir boy for all I know. What's been going on with RPGSolo is what I don't agree with and consider sleazy. That stuff was enough to lose the site some endoresements. But don't worry, there are users on your forum that don't really care whether other people's work is properly acknowledged and respected when copied. They'll continue to get their gaming fix there until SOLORpg.net appears with a better copy of the copy.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWow, what did Rickmorn Stoneblade say??
ReplyDeleteAnyway, back to the matter at hand. You accuse ME of being obstinate and then you discount my analogies as irrelevant - bummer, I thought we were done with that part, but okay, I'll keep it going...
Pepsi copied a combination of features from Coca Cola, just about every feature in fact, but I don't see any thanks to Coca Cola for their inspiration on the can or their website. Should I stop drinking Coke?
And here’s a less sarcastic analogy… Mark pointed out in his forum the fact that Google, who makes over 90 million dollars a day, is under several lawsuits and known for serial intellectual property theft - And Google owns Blogger…. Hmmm…
Dreamer, shouldn’t you stop supporting Google and start a crusade against some actual culprits?
You say the differences between MAG and RSQ are vastly exaggerated, but you admit that they have different images (not just different images, but an entirely different theme of images), more combinations (not just more, but exponentially more), and that RSC is in dice format (I think the difference between a set of dice and a set of images in a web app is pretty significant - it's not like there's a die-rolling animation or something - but I guess that's just my opinion) - and yes, I know they made a web app, but the core of their product is a set of dice, whereas MAG is only a free web app - you also left out the price difference (I think $10.00 vs free is pretty significant, but again, that's my opinion)
Honestly I can't imagine how the differences could have been anymore vast - I guess if he'd arranged them in a grid of 4x4 or in a straight line, and named it something with two or four words? Ooh, circles instead of squares... no, wait... HEXAGONS! I'll suggest it!
So no, your Tetris to Tetris clones analogy is completely irrelevant.
Your claims of his so called pattern are also irrelevant, since you are talking about Mark giving late credit to other products (an oversight which again, you could have corrected by a simple message or post) – this late credit giving occurred AFTER you made the accusation. The ammo you load into a gun AFTER you shoot someone is irrelevant to the shooting.
Plus, you still didn’t answer the question. Why did give praise and credit for the core tools in his site? If Mark was all about putting down others and taking credit for their work, wouldn’t he have done it to them as well?
Lastly, when I talk about Mark’s character, I am not talking about whether or not he is the member of a Choir – I’m specifically talking about his ethics as a creative web developer. You are off base and you refuse to admit to the flaws in your core argument, which seems pretty obstinate to me.
You say that this “stuff” is enough to lose him some endorsements, but you are the only one that saw any issues and the one or two others that have said that they won’t “support” his site are those that were caught up in your initial “gaslighting”.
Oh, and speaking of gaslighting – you ended your post by accusing his forum’s users of getting their gaming fix and not caring whether other people’s work is properly acknowledged and respected when copied! Wow! Attacking Mark over such a shaky bunch of assumptions is one thing, but attacking everyone that uses the site? I hate to say it, but… TROLL???
"Wow, what did Rickmorn Stoneblade say??"
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Why don't you ask him/her? I didn't read the comment before it was deleted.
"You say the differences between MAG and RSQ are vastly exaggerated"
You tout it as a completely different product, but the differences are minor.Abstract images are abstract images. 9 images are 9 images. Their purpose are the same. The name/brand is similar. And MAG only came into existence after RSC were requested.
"Honestly I can't imagine how the differences could have been anymore vast - I guess if he'd arranged them in a grid of 4x4 or in a straight line, and named it something with two or four words? Ooh, circles instead of squares... no, wait... HEXAGONS! I'll suggest it!"
That's like saying copying the Coca Cola recipe, changing one ingredient, and making a much bigger bottle makes a vastly different product.
Ironically, your Coke vs Pepsi comment is opportune. From the lack of proper acknowledgement down to the attitude of taking shots at the "competition", even though you supposedly have no plans to make money, you are the Pepsi. Heck, not even that. You're the Royal Crown Cola.
And do you know why I've been pointing out details like 9 images and similar names? Because it shows Mark was too lazy and derivative to even bother to change that. Which is the vibe of the whole site when it comes to these: Claims of originality when everything is derivative.
So yeah, MAG are not only the "Great Giana Sisters" to RSC's "Mario Bros", they're the Royal Crown to Coca Cola.
"Your claims of his so called pattern are also irrelevant, since you are talking about Mark giving late credit to other products (an oversight which again, you could have corrected by a simple message or post) – this late credit giving occurred AFTER you made the accusation. The ammo you load into a gun AFTER you shoot someone is irrelevant to the shooting."
Yup, a pretty big oversight, I'd say. Took almost a whole year to edit a few lines in a PHP or HTML page, and only after it was strongly criticized. Must be a lot harder and time consuming to do that than to make several youtube advertisements, post on reddit, twitter, and take shots at other works. I feel ya.
And the shot he took yesterday only adds more evidence to the pattern. I'd say that's relevant.
"Plus, you still didn’t answer the question. Why did give praise and credit for the core tools in his site? If Mark was all about putting down others and taking credit for their work, wouldn’t he have done it to them as well?"
I don't know why he decided some deserved credit and others didn't, and why some deserved to take shots and not others. Doesn't take away from the fact that not giving credit to other tools that are copied is kind of a shitty thing to do. It's also pretty shitty to then take shots at them.
"Lastly, when I talk about Mark’s character, I am not talking about whether or not he is the member of a Choir – I’m specifically talking about his ethics as a creative web developer. You are off base and you refuse to admit to the flaws in your core argument, which seems pretty obstinate to me."
Again, his behavior in regards to this strikes me as sleazy. Which is to say, I think it's unsavory. Low class. Shady. Cheap. Crummy. Shitty.
ReplyDelete"You say that this “stuff” is enough to lose him some endorsements, but you are the only one that saw any issues and the one or two others that have said that they won’t “support” his site are those that were caught up in your initial “gaslighting”."
Eh, he lost the endorsements because people could see for themselves the lack of credit, the strange youtube advertisements (for a site that isn't ever going to be about profit), the multiple shots at one product, etc. They happened to agree with my opinion, because they were either directly affected by it, or just didn't like what they saw on RPGSolo's own forums, or what they didn't see on the front page.
Likewise, others have read the forums and come to different conclusions:
"Oh, and speaking of gaslighting – you ended your post by accusing his forum’s users of getting their gaming fix and not caring whether other people’s work is properly acknowledged and respected when copied! Wow! Attacking Mark over such a shaky bunch of assumptions is one thing, but attacking everyone that uses the site? I hate to say it, but… TROLL???"
Well, if they cared about proper acknowledgement of other's work they would have:
1. Said something so that it would be changed.
2. Taken exception at the tone of some posts.
Well, the facts are:
1. They didn't say anyting.
2. They didn't say anything while continuing to enjoy the knock-offs of other works
3. Some even defended the site in light of what came out.
See you are both worrying about what effect my posts here will have on people who read them. If they read my posts, they will be aware of the problems with RPGSolo. If they are aware of the problems with RPGSolo, and continue to use and support the site, the only conclusion that a person can reach is that those users don't really think proper acknowledgement of other's work is more important than getting their gaming fix.
ReplyDeleteFinally,
"Pepsi copied a combination of features from Coca Cola, just about every feature in fact, but I don't see any thanks to Coca Cola for their inspiration on the can or their website. Should I stop drinking Coke? "
That is up to you, Slaad, but then:
Do you folks consider RPGSolo to be in competition with all these products you copy?
See, context matters. This niche community is one that until RPGSolo began its shenanigans was supportive, harmonious, and certainly not engaging on appropriating other's stuff without credit. You're not dealing with big faceless companies when you copy all of these tools. You are dealing with independent creators and their labours of love. The biggest one and closest to a "faceless company" being http://www.thecreativityhub.com/.
Being that you all claim that RPGSolo has no intention of making a profit, it's strange that you act as if your site's wholly derivative products are in competition with 9Qs UNE, and RSC by not crediting them, and/or taking shots at them.
After this, you can have the last word, because I know you will just keep sidestepping the issue:
1. It doesn't take one whole year to add a few lines of acknoledgement to products you are copying.
2. If a person has time to promote their site on twitter, youtube, and reddit, and also has time to copy a number of products, and also has time to make more than one thread taking shots at one of them, how come they can't find the time in almost a year to add a few lines of acknowledgement?
3. If a person is being criticized for not copying works, not acknowledging, and sometimes taking shots at them, how come it takes five days for that person to add a few lines of acknowledgement? And how come, it takes them almost no time to make a defensive comment on a blog, create a defensive thread on RPGSolo, and post to it continuously for five days about how they don't need to credit them?
Maybe that person never really had any intention to acknowledge the works they copied, and only did it after the perceived heat from a one man "crusade" got to be too much.
Wow, this is quite a load, so I’ll just start at the top again…
ReplyDeleteI don’t “tout” that they are completely different products – they are. You say images are images, but that’s like saying the images in a Barbie coloring book are the same as the images in a Playboy magazine (since RSC & MAG both use abstract images, and Barbie and Playboy both use images of women). Yes, nine images are nine images, but that’s why I used the Tic Tac Toe analogy. The fact that RSC uses an arrangement of 9 images isn’t what defines them as a product. Are you actually saying that if he’d used 16 images, we wouldn’t be having this debate? You say their purpose is the same, but that’s also false… Similar, yes, but RSC is for creative writing (a class my daughter took in middle school), MAG is for solo role-playing (like the adventures we create on RPG Solo using Mark’s site) – big difference – which is why I made the “Bumblebee the Barbarian” comment in an earlier post. MAG only came into existence after someone requested a functionality LIKE RSC, and Mark accommodated, coming up with his own cool take on using images to inspire adventure. I already explained why the names were similar in an earlier post.
“you are the Pepsi. Heck, not even that. You're the Royal Crown Cola” – that’s funny, but also completely false for two reasons…
1. Pepsi and RC created cola clones in order to make money, Mark created a new image app (which is not even cola flavored or carbonated, if you like the Coke analogy) on his free site because a user asked for that kind of tool.
2. MAG is vastly superior to RSC in the context of SOLO ROLE-PLAYING. Don’t agree with me? Try using both products to create a fantasy or sci-fi adventure :]
“Because it shows Mark was too lazy and derivative to even bother to change that.” – You really think Mark went to the trouble of getting the icons and writing all the code for MAG, but was too “lazy” to bother to change an arrangement of 3x3, or come up with a name that didn’t sound like RSC? That makes no sense – and “derivative” implies that he had some malign purpose, which as I’ve been pointing out form the beginning, he did not – that malign purpose only exists in your crazy conspiracy theory.
“Yup, a pretty big oversight, I'd say. Took almost a whole year to edit a few lines in a PHP or HTML page” – big oversight? No, that’s your opinion – I think it was very minor, if it was an oversight at all. And you keep harping on the “whole year” bit, but I’ve already pointed out that if you’d just made the suggestion in his forum or sent him a message, he’d have corrected the minor oversight. It’s obvious that he was not putting off editing a few lines in PHP, he just didn’t see the transgression that you did. If you cared so much about RSC getting proper credit, why didn’t you just send a message to make sure they got it? Must be a lot harder to send a message saying “hey, I noticed you didn’t give credit to RSC for inspiring MAG, than starting a one-man crusade to end the tyranny of RPG Solo – I feel ya. Like I said before, he’d probably have just given them credit right then and there – and the tone of the credit he gave afterward understandably matched the tone of your criticism, somewhat.
“And the shot he took yesterday only adds more evidence to the pattern.” - Nope, any and all “shots” he’s recently taken are in response to the “shots” you fired – that happens when you call someone “sleazy” without actual cause.
“I don't know why he decided some deserved credit and others didn't, and why some deserved to take shots and not others.” – Yeah, you can’t answer that question because the answer is too simple. There was no conspiracy or playing favorites, he just gave credit where he believed credit was due – Why, because he’s ethical and he does that – simple.
“…not giving credit to other tools that are copied is kind of a shitty thing to do. It's also pretty shitty to then take shots at them.” – It would be shitty if he actually intended to do that, which he didn’t – and whether he unintentionally did that is still the biggest part of this debate. Do you know what I think is “a shitty thing to do?” – Try to trash somebody’s rep and site without proper cause and without talking to them first like a normal human being, in order to get the facts, and then trashing any users of that site, calling them unethical based on your easily debatable opinion. THAT kind of behavior strikes me as sleazy, unsavory, low class, shady, cheap, crummy, and most definitely shitty – rest assured though, I won’t go out and find links to your blog just to “warn” people of your shady practices, instead of just bringing my concerns directly to your attention.
ReplyDelete“Eh, he lost the endorsements because people could see for themselves…” – Nope – They didn’t come to these conclusions on their own, they just bought into your stink. The “lack of credit” was inconsistent with the credit given, I've already explained “the strange YouTube ads”, and for the millionth time, this site will never be about profit – seriously, that theory could not be more far-fetched. The media often trashes individuals that don’t deserve it and the public often buys it. In this case, you alone are the “bad media”.
“Well, if they cared about proper acknowledgement of other's work” – again, your take on his supposed transgressions is not shared by everyone (in fact I’m surprised it’s shared by anyone, especially if they do some digging on their own), so the issue is NOT that his users don’t care, the issue is that they don’t agree with your opinions – I know, because I am a user of his site, I do care about proper acknowledgement, and I don’t agree your opinions.
I’m not worried about what effect your posts here will have on people reading them – I’m calling you out on your ridiculous rant, and I’m making sure readers see both sides, since I’d always love to see that happen in cases of bad media. There are no problems with RPG Solo, even with a hyperactive Troll trying to shoot it down – it’s just a fun site for solo role-playing that the few users which have been using it, continue to use. We’re not ignoring ethics to get our gaming fix, we’re just laughing and shaking our heads at your crazy accusations in utter disbelief.
“Do you folks consider RPGSolo to be in competition with all these products you copy?” – No, I don’t – I was making the Coke analogy to poke holes in YOUR opinion, not mine. I don’t think it’s a copy at all. Like I said earlier, it’s a site that combines existing tools so you can use them together. You’re right, context does matter, so don’t take my argument out of context. This niche community was supportive and harmonious until YOU started your smear campaign.
ReplyDelete“Being that you all claim that RPGSolo has no intention of making a profit, it's strange that you act as if your site's wholly derivative products are in competition with 9Qs UNE, and RSC by not crediting them, and/or taking shots at them.” – I’ve already pointed out that the lack of credit is your opinion, and as far as competition – are you saying that it’s wrong to promote your website unless you’re trying to make a profit, or that only people trying to make a profit make any attempts at promoting a site they've worked on? Really?
I’m not sidestepping anything – I’m walking straight into each point and showing clearly why there is no transgression, conspiracy, or sleazy habits here – just one unusually riled up troll. I would gladly let you have the last word, if it were a rational one.
Now to the final points you think you’ve made:
1. You’re right – it does not take a whole year to add a few lines of acknowledgement, which is why Mark added those lines of acknowledgement on the home page before the site was even active. What does take a whole year is adding a few lines to appease an angry troll that posts a criticism a whole year after your site has launched.
2. See point 1.
3. The answer to that point is easy – if you disagree with an attack that you feel is unwarranted, you respond first to the attack, and then to the attacker's demands.
I’m sure he DIDN'T intend to acknowledge those particular works, since he didn’t see them as contributing in the same way that he did see those works he did acknowledge, OR maybe it was just a minor oversight. The point is, there was no “sleazy” mal-intent. And “only did it after the perceived heat”? No, like I said, you should have just sent him a message – Your “heat” was entirely misguided, disproportionate, and unnecessary – which is why I’ve made these posts.
I can now accuse you of sidestepping everything and welcome you to have the last word, suggesting that your responses will be just baseless ranting, but I won’t do that like you did. If you have any valid rational responses to my points, please make them (though the ones that I’ve already shot down, in my opinion, do get tiresome as you keep repeating them).
Did I miss anything? If I did, point it out, because I only missed it due to the volume of your posts, not as an attempt to sidestep anything.
*If you're reading this and you are not Dreamer, please weigh in - Dreamer seems to think I'm just sidestepping and trying to have the last word because I'm being obstinate - what do you think?
Slaad11
Oops - Dreamer, I was only replying to the content of your post, so I missed the fact that you completely avoided (side-stepped?) the point about Google's practices and their ownership of the Blogger tool you support - care to comment on that?
ReplyDeleteSlaad11
Oh, never mind - I see that you didn't completely avoid that point, you just sidestepped it by lumping in their activities with "big faceless companies" - so I guess that makes their sleazy actions okay to support, huh?
ReplyDeleteI deleted your comments because I already linked that whole thread in my main post. No need to have it in the comments and erroneously point to it as a supposed "summary".
ReplyDeleteAnd I won't be accepting any more comments that rehash the same arguments. A summary of the arguments in this comment thread has been made on this page:
ReplyDeletehttp://solorpggamer.blogspot.com/p/why-i-dont-support-rpgsolocom.html
Comments section closed. Anyone else wanting to dish their 2 cents via a sockpuppet can go to Mark's website. .
ReplyDelete